next »

[stormbringer]

Recently the Klang COC published in its 17 May, 2009 news bulletin saying that the AD 70 Doctrine or Realized Eschatology is an erroneous doctrine.

Will the Klang COC members please clarify on this matter?

Stormbringer!     

[stormbringer]

I have to say that I am disappointed that no one from the Klang COC is dealing with this issue. It is so easy to say that the doctrine of AD70/Realized Eschatology is erroneous behind close doors but dare not do it in the open, especially in the forum like this.

You know why they will not deal with this issue openly? Let’s see how they deal with the following and more verses; then you will know why.

For those who are opposed to this doctrine, you need to deal with the following verses as honest as possible; to tell us when Jesus is coming.

Matt. 10:23 - When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matt. 16:27- For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Mark 8:38 - For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
Mark 9:1 - And He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.”

If Jesus had not come in the days of the apostles or in that generation as He had said, it will mean that:

a) He lied about His coming, or
b) since He has not come, some of the apostles are still alive today and, they are still fleeing from one city to another in Israel, or
c) He had come as promised in AD 70.

One has to decide!

I am just quoting these few verses only at this moment. More verses to come.

Stormbringer.

[Ellipsys]

Hello Stormbringer,

Yeah, I am also disappointed that no one from the Klang COC is dealing with this issue, though it's refreshing to know their stance.

Meanwhile, this is for your perusal.

Context is important if we are to understand events in ordinary life. In the same way, context is critical to understanding the Bible. By ignoring context, some misunderstand Matthew 10:23. They erroneously claim that Christ predicted an event that did not happen, and then incorrectly conclude that Christ was a false prophet.

Matthew 10:23 reads; “But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.”

The last part of the verse is a prophetic statement that has proven true up to the present time. If the current situation changed before the return of Christ, then the prophecy would fail.

What, then, is the context for Matt 10:23? Matthew 10 begins with the selection of twelve men from among those who follow Christ. Christ picks these men, whom we know as the apostles, because they are the ones who will be in charge of carrying out His work after He is gone. These twelve will, in turn, teach others those things that Christ had taught them. That cycle would continue so that the work that Christ had begun would be carried out until His return.

The specific mandate in verses 7-8, given first to the twelve apostles and that which Christians are to carry out today, is to “preach... the kingdom of heaven is at hand”. That message, initiated by Christ and first carried to Israel, is now proclaimed throughout the world.

In the immediate context, we find Christ preparing to send the twelve out to evangelize towns in the surrounding region. Christ uses this first evangelistic exercise as the backdrop to prepare the apostles for those things that they will begin to face as they go out on this first task and later throughout their ministries.

As Christ sent the twelve out to evangelize the surrounding towns, He made it clear that this was not a one-time event. Evangelizing was to be their vocation for the rest of their lives. Christ spoke broadly of the conditions they would face in their evangelistic efforts. Earlier, He had told the apostles to count the costs of following Him. Here, He laid out those costs.

As the disciples traveled to the surrounding cities in Israel, Christ told them that they would be denied entry into some cities and threatened with persecution in others. On those occasions where the disciples encountered indifference or persecution, they were to leave immediately for the next city. They were not to make special efforts to preach the gospel to those who did not want to hear it. As a consequence, they would not be able to complete the assignment to preach the gospel in every city they visited.

Indifference and hostility to the gospel message were two of the problems that the apostles would face in their evangelistic efforts. In Matthew 10:17-18, Christ told the disciples that they would also be scourged in the synagogues and brought before governors and kings.

Matthew 10:24-31 render the prophecy by Christ in general on how His disciples will be persecuted and martyred while they are preaching the gospel. He makes a comparison that while He is the master, the Jews rejected Him and seek to persecute and kill Him. The disciples who are His servants will not be able to do better than Him and will be rejected. They being the servants will be persecuted, killed and be treated even worse than how the Jews treated Him who is the master.

In conclusion, Christ comforts His disciples by telling them not to be afraid of those that will kill them. With words of assurance, He affirms that He will take care of His disciples and nothing, not even a strand of their hair will be lost.

These verses provide crucial evidence that Christ is prophesying of a failure in accomplishing the task of ministering [in preaching the gospel] to the Jews in this context rather than merely visiting all the cities of Israel.

Within the above context, the difficulty presented by the phrase, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, or, as in the NIV, You will not have finished going through the cities of Israel, can be resolved. Those who ignore context will read the prophecy as if the disciples were merely to visit every city in Israel before the second coming of Christ. Such is a relatively simple task, which could easily have been accomplished in a short time. If that were the point of the prophecy, the prophecy would be false. That view misses the entire purpose for Christ’s birth, life, and ultimate death on the cross.

Christ enunciation of the ‘cities of Israel’ and not the ‘cities of Judea’ indicates that He wasn’t referring to the Jewish cities of His contemporary generation only but also the Jewish cities through out generations of Jews until His second coming. Using this prophecy, Christ told not just his disciples, but all believers in the future, that they would not be able to finish the task of preaching the gospel in every city in Israel before His second coming. Christ was simply saying that the Jews would resist the message of the gospel until the very end.

They would be indifferent to its message, often openly hostile, and even seek to persecute those who tried to preach it. Those who have tried to preach the gospel to the Jews can testify that their efforts have been resisted. They have not been able to go through all the cities of Israel preaching the gospel and will not be able to do so before the second coming of Christ.

The Greek text supports this interpretation. The key word in the verse is the Greek word telew, translated as, gone over, in the KJV. It is a word that one uses to describe completing a task or finishing an assignment. Christ, in using the Greek word telew, did not predict a failure to physically visit every city in Israel, a relatively simple task, but a failure to accomplish a specific assignment that was to be carried out in every city of Israel.

We see, then, that Christ has predicted that the Jews would reject those who preach that He was the Christ. They would refuse to listen to that message and would even persecute those who preached. That happened when Christ sent out the disciples, and it has happened even to our time whenever people tried preaching to Israel the good news of Jesus Christ. The prediction has proved accurate. The disciples were not able to preach the gospel to Israel during their lifetimes, and those who have followed them have not been able to finish the task. The task will not be fulfilled by the time Christ returns.

We see then that the prophecy in Matthew 10:23 has not failed. It is as relevant and true today as it was when Christ spoke it.

Maranatha!

~Ellipsys~

[Joseph s/o Matthias]

Greetings Ellipsys,

Stormbringer is disappointed that no one from the Klang COC is dealing with this issue save behind closed doors.  As Stormbringer says: “It is so easy to say that the doctrine of AD70/Realized Eschatology is erroneous behind close doors but dare not do it in the open, especially in the forum like this.”

And yes, I see that you are disappointed too.

But you also say that it is refreshing to know their stance.

My observation is this – don’t be so happy yet because they may just have a stance that is different from yours.

From the stance of your lengthy reply to Stormbringer, I gather that you hold to a futurist stance. That is fine as each person is entitled to his or her own view. What matters more and which is appreciated greatly is that you are willing to engage in discussion and defend your stance.

And may I say that your post is quite well written too. You have obviously invested much time and effort into the reply.

Most churches of Christ (and that probably includes the Klang church of Christ) are partial-preterist in stance.

It would be interesting to know what they have to say to your posting. Do they hold to the same stance? Do they differ? Or will they condemn or approve behind closed doors? Or will we ever know?

Joseph Matthias

[Ellipsys]

From Johor Bahru: Greetings…

Preterists turn Christ into a false prophet!

The AD70 doctrine or realized eschatology is better known as Preterism. It has quite a following within Christianity. Preterism is the belief that all or most of the biblical prophecy is fulfilled. There is a debate amongst themselves as to exactly where we presently are in the book of Revelation, but they all [partial and full Preterists] agree that Matthew 24 is fulfilled. They believe the abomination of desolation, the great tribulation, and the day of the Lord was fulfilled in AD70 during the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem.

One of their arguments goes like this:-

When Christ told His disciples about the coming abomination of desolation and His return, He indicated that they would see these events take place because He addressed them personally.

“Therefore when YOU see the abomination of desolation…[Matthew 24:15].

“…when YOU see all these things, recognize that He is near…[Matthew 24:33].

Preterists teach that because Christ was speaking directly to His first century disciples, He must have been speaking about the first century generation in general, and therefore, the prophecies must have taken place in that generation. They claim that other factions of Christianity do not interpret the bible literally, and that “turning the obvious meaning of ‘you’ into a designation for a future audience is highly irregular and contrary to all the rules of biblical interpretation”. [Gary DeMar, End Times Fiction, p.67]

But if a Preterist is going to actually interpret this passage “literally” in the way they claim they do, they cannot say that Christ is speaking to the first century disciples in general. He was not speaking to the disciples in general. Christ was speaking to Peter, James, John, and Andrew…PRIVATELY. Christ told them, the specific four, that THEY would see the abomination of desolation, and that THEY would see “all these things.”

But as we know from Scripture, at least James [see Acts 12:2], and possibly Peter, was killed before the time when Preterists claim the abomination of desolation took place in 66 AD. At least one of the four did not see what Christ said he would see. Are the Preterists going to tell us that Christ was not making a broader application that transcends the specific four when He looked directly at James and said, "When YOU see the abomination of desolation...flee?"

Either Christ was wrong and is a false prophet, or the Preterists had erred in their interpretation of the word “you”. Hmm, evidently Christ was speaking about the Church in general when He addressed the disciples. Evidently, the phrase “this generation” was spoken by Christ in the context of an “age”. Evidently, the AD70 doctrine/realized eschatology pretty much amount to nothing if not a manipulation of the context in the scriptures by the Preterists.

Maranatha!

~Ellipsys~

[Ellipsys]

From Johor Bahru: Greetings…

Preterists’ lynchpin proof-texts collapses under its own weight!

This is the second lynchpin proof-texts/time-texts that Preterists oft-adduce in support of their teaching; which I will prove it’s a fallacy promulgated by a bunch of irresponsible, myopic ignoramuses.

Matthew 16:28: “Verily, I say unto you, There be some standing here which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

The Preterists claim that because Jesus said, ‘there be some standing here,’ etc., that His second advent must have occurred during the lifetime of His original audience; and they therefore look for an event (any event!) that fits the bill.  Come to the destruction of Jerusalem, and they quickly conclude that this is what Christ was referring to.  The idea fits in, of course, with the theory that AD70 formed some great eschatological crisis.  Nevertheless, what saith the Word of God?

Let’s look at Christ’s words more closely.  This saying of His, that some will not taste of death, until they see His coming  in His kingdom, is found in all three synoptic Gospels.  Therefore, a careful study of the context will help to draw out the true meaning. 

(Matthew 16:28) “Verily, I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

(Mark 9:1) “And He said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.” 

(Luke 9:27) “But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.” 

Then, in all three synoptic Gospels, follows this statement with an account of Christ’s transfiguration, which happened six days later (Matt. 17:1-9; Mark 9:2-9; Luke 9:28-36).
 
Without being too prolix, in each account of this momentous statement, that some shall not taste of death UNTIL they see the Son of Man, we are told that Christ took His disciples (Peter, James, and John) into a mountain, and was transfigured before them.

It is assumed that some who were present would live to see the Second Advent.  Therefore, some of the disciples were not to taste of death UNTIL they saw the kingdom come with power.  The implication is that they would “taste of death” afterwards. They would die just as everyone else in due time.

Here is where Preterists play fast and loose with definitions.  For in holding their view that Matt. 16:28 points to AD70, they have to admit that “death” here means the separation of the body and soul.  That is, according to Preterists, some of Christ’s original audience would not physically die until they saw the destruction of the temple, which they delude themselves into believing is the coming of Christ.
 
However, the scriptures have a completely different story to tell. This is what the scriptures have to say about the events that transpire at the coming of Christ.

I Thessalonians 4:15-17 read;
 
v15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

v16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

v17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The parallel passage which reveals the details in I Corinthians 15:51-54 read;
 
v51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed;
 
v52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

v53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

v54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

  But if death is to be defeated at Christ’s second coming, and the second coming occurred in AD70, those who remained to see the event shouldn’t have died afterwards.  Otherwise, how was death annulled at the Second Advent? 

Notwithstanding their misapprehension of Christ’s response, however, their understanding of tasting physical death proves that Matt. 16:28 is not pertinent to the Second Advent. Christ intently uses the phrase ‘shall not taste of death’ in this verse to render a crystal clear distinction signifying that He is not speaking of His actual coming but rather to an anterior event, closely related there to, which would occur during their lifetime.  That event was none other than the transfiguration.
 
We have the inspired apostle Peter’s interpretation to attest to this!  Here we find the apostle Peter substantiates what Christ stated in Matt. 16:28 to be the transfiguration! 

In his second epistle, Peter writes: “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power (dunamis) and coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty.  For He received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice to Him from the excellent glory, saying, This is my beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased.  And the voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with Him in the Holy Mount” (2 Peter 1:16-18).

Notice how Peter uses the two words, dunamis and parousia, in describing what he saw on the Mount of Transfiguration (compare 2 Peter 1:16 with Mark 9:1).  According to his own account, the transfiguration was a fore-glimpse of Christ’s parousia, by which He was able to “make known” to the church the manner of that event.  Its typological connection with the parousia makes it possible for Christ to refer to it as the event itself.
 
While it was not the event, however, it indicated how the Lord is to come in glory at the end of the present age.  It will not be an invisible, hypothetical coming; but will be personal, visible, and glorious, and will result in the salvation of those who wait on Him.  Peter’s words alone disproved the Preterist interpretation; and hence we need offer no additional support for the view that Matthew 16:28 refers to the transfiguration, and not to the destruction of Jerusalem.  Anti-climactic, you say?  Well, that’s just the simplicity of the Gospel.

Maranatha!

~Ellipsys~

[Ellipsys]

From Johor Bahru: Greetings…

This is actually a repost which I had posted previously in the other thread that I frequent in debate with Search. I have, however, rearranged and edited it in order to render a more compelling approach in opposition to Preterism. Search, if you are reading this, I am pretty sure that you will like this even more since you find that my original post was so very interesting.     

The Parable Of The Fig Tree
 
In the Olivet discourse [Luke 21], Christ tells us the ‘Parable of the fig tree’ and renders the interpretation of it.

Luke 21:29-32 read;

v29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees.   
v30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near.   
v31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.
v32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.”

In these verses [v30-v31], Christ specifies very clearly that;

(1) The ‘budding of the fig tree’ depicts ‘these things’
(2) ‘Summer’ depicts ‘kingdom of God’

‘These things’ in this context refers to the signs, which are predominantly in the form of cataclysm that Christ prophesies in this passage. [Luke 21]

Under such circumstances, the ‘budding of the fig tree’ could be taken as an epoch of cataclysmic instability preceding the coming of the ‘kingdom of God’. In this regard, in view of the fact that the ‘kingdom of God’ is ‘summer’, the ‘budding of the fig tree’ is the season preceding ‘summer’ which is ‘spring’.

All of us are well aware that spring is a maturity season for the leaves and blossoms, from the budding it will mature into tender leaves before growing into fully matured leaves. Only when the leaves are matured, the season of spring will come to end and the season of summer arrives. The level of maturity is the indicator of time.

Therefore, the ‘Parable of the fig tree’, delivers a very clear message. The budding need to mature into fully matured leaves in the season of spring before summer comes. Likewise, all the signs need to be fulfilled within the span of the epoch before the ‘kingdom of God’ comes.

The subsequent verse is the third and last of the lynchpins of all Preterism’s so-called ‘proof-texts/time-texts’; which I will now disprove. With that Preterism’s mockery will be made complete.

Luke 21:32; “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.”

One just need to look at this verse and ask; “What does ‘all things’ mean”? As I have mentioned earlier ‘all [these] things’ refers to the signs, which is an epoch of cataclysmic instability preceding the coming of the ‘kingdom of God’.

Thus, the message that Christ renders in this verse is ‘this generation’ will not pass away until all these signs He prophesied came to a fulfillment.

This is where the Preterists’ fallacy creeps in. They regard ‘this generation’ to be the original audience contemporaneous with Christ living in the first century. Therefore, all these things that Christ had prophesied had to be fulfilled in within the life-time of the generation in the first century.

In order to comprehend what’s the connotation of the word ‘generation’; let’s dig deeper into it.

The original Greek text for the word ‘generation’ in this verse is ‘genea’. Strong’s Greek dictionary-concordance states the following defination:- >> genea – a generation or by implication; an age.

Evidently, ‘genea’ could be referred to as an ‘age’.

Therefore, by allowing this connotation to take precedence: ‘This generation shall not pass away till all these things be fulfilled’ implies ‘This age shall not pass away till all these things be fulfilled’.

This reading is in complete harmony with the parable of the fig tree. The ‘generation’ in this verse is an age, which is an epoch. Christ is indeed stressing that this age, which He likened to spring; shall not come to pass until all the signs He had prophesied had been fulfilled. Only when all these things that Christ had prophesied came to a fulfillment, culminating in His second coming, this generation/age will then pass away and summer will dawn, ushering in the new generation/age of the kingdom of God.

Appropriately, this prophecy and the parable of the fig tree is Christ’s direct response to the question that the disciples asked, ‘What shall be the sign of thy coming and the end of the age?’

This concludes that the present generation is still in the ‘spring’ season. The coming of the ‘kingdom of God’ which is ‘summer’ is still in the future. Christ tells us that when we see the ‘budding of the fig tree’ know that summer is near, but He didn’t say summer has already come.

Nowhere in this verse [Luke 21:32] does it say that the coming of the ‘kingdom of God’ will be fulfilled within the life-time of the generation contemporaneous with Christ in the first century. [No matter how fanciful this verse is being stretched] The ‘generation’ in this verse is referring to time and to postulate it to refer to people is absurd and completely off the mark.

The early generation of Christians saw some signs foretold by Christ being fulfilled within the time of their generation; eg. the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem. Likewise, our generation saw the fulfillment of certain signs, eg. the fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles.

This is an indication that we are moving in time, approaching nearer to the coming of the ‘kingdom of God’ and if we are not the last generation, the future generations that come after us would see other signs that were foretold by Christ that have yet to be fulfilled in our generation before the ‘kingdom of God’ comes.

Christ presented us with a broader spectrum when He delivered the ‘Parable of the fig tree’, which is consistent with His foretelling of His coming in Luke 21:25-28. However, it mustn’t be twisted to say that the destructions of the temple and Jerusalem are associated with the coming of the ‘kingdom of God’.

The ‘budding of the fig tree’ represents the early generation of Christians, which saw the fulfillment of certain signs. Our generation is represented by more mature leaves, which led us to see the fulfillment of certain signs too. All these are, however, within the span of ‘spring’; which is categorized as a season, an epoch, a generation or an age.

Until ‘summer’ comes when we can see Christ physically as described in Matthew 25:31-46; we are still in ‘spring’. One can only say the ‘kingdom of God’ has come if one is in the scenario portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46.

The third Preterists’ lynchpin proof-texts/time-texts just as the other two earlier ones I disproved, is yet again being proven to be a fallacy. This concludes that the AD70 doctrine/realized eschatology is basically a HOAX and is worth much less than the paper that it’s printed on. Once again, the simplicity of the gospel separates the truth from the fallacy; ain’t it pulchritudinous?

Maranatha!

~Ellipsys~

[alankoay81]

it'd be great if some members of the Klang COC would be able to clarify the erroneous doctrine of Realized Eschatology as published in its bulletin...

this forum could serve as a great platform for further constructive discussions, hopefully one that will end with a sound conclusion...

hmmm..btw, where's Search??

[alankoay81]

hey Stormbringer, could u scan a copy of the May 17th bulletin and show it to us in the forum? I assume u've got a copy of it... it'd be great to know what's written in it...